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 Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: Scott the Plumber (PA)

I would like to get the forums feedback as to how many of you install house traps and fresh air inlets on septic systems and why or why not. I have my own position, but have heard both sides from other plumbers and also 'septic specialists'.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: SMSPlumbing (PA)

Its the same reason they do not allow house traps on town/city sewers, you are double trapping the fixtures, and there is no need to do it.

As far as fresh air, I know some areas require a vent on the sewer line coming into the house. And it can not be a wet vent.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: hj (AZ)

I would never "voluntarily" install a house trap on ANY sewer system, period.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: Shoemaker2 (MA)

If there is a trap then there is no way the the sewer gases can be vented from the tank or sewer.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: LemonPlumber (FL)

I would not connect to your tank unless you guarantee free flow of my air to your inlet.this is my dwv.and it has not thing one, to do with any septic system. Until the septic fails!!!!!!!!Ask me if I could free vent your grey water tank.YES.by volume and it works.Can I position a field loop to act as a relief for slow field.YES.narrow the prefect flow to where in the tubing it may flow. I may always find a alternate and yes, you may not want to know.Your homes dwv is it's own to the tank.no held water to that point is all that you should think.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: Scott the Plumber (PA)

Interesting the different ideas on plumbing throughout the US. Most areas that I'm familiar with require house traps on the building drain with a fresh air inlet and cleanout. I've also found jurisdictions that are removing them. SMSPlumbing, a building trap is not double-trapping a fixture but I appreciate the input. I'm surprised to hear that venting of a sewer main or septic tank is necessary through the house main and a trap would interfere with the air flow as Shoemaker2 stated.
I wanted some of this feedback to help in settling a debate between a building inspector and a septic installer on a job where I am doing the house plumbing. They each have over 20 years experience in their fields and asked for my input when they butted heads on the septic install.
Seems the popular vote so far goes to "no building trap".



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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: SMSPlumbing (PA)

This is out of the 2009 IPC book:

HOUSE TRAPS
House traps are no longer allowed; they represent a double trapping of all fixtures.
Local codes may allow house traps under certain circumstances. House traps were
once installed where the building drain joined with the sewer. Most house traps
were installed inside the structure, but a fair number were installed outside underground.
Their purpose was to prevent sewer gas from coming out of the sewer and
into the plumbing system. But house traps make drain cleaning very difficult and
they create a double-trapping situation, which is not allowed. This regulation, like
most regulations, is subject to amendment and variance by the local code official.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: hj (AZ)

The first 15 words were all that were necessary and comprehensible. After that, I have no idea what you said.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: hj (AZ)

It would be a "double trap" if the house used all AAVs without the ONE vent through the roof which is required. A septic system could be considered a "closed system" since there is no vent to allow air to be displaced by the incoming water, therefore, in the case of a sudden flow, the house trap might prevent the free flow of air and cause the system to NOT drain properly. But in any case they create more problems than they solve.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: hj (AZ)

Only the IPC would consider a house trap a double trap, which might give some insight into the qualifications of those writing the regulations. And IF a house trap created a double trap NO jurisdiction would permit it, much less REQUIRE it, because the deterioration in flow from a double trap is a function of physics, NOT code.



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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: Nayman's Drain Services (Non-US)

And YOU try cleaning through a trap

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: x apprentice 22 (MA)

They make a good grease trap too!:disappointed:



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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: hj (AZ)

That is why they are supposed to have cleanouts on both sides.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: Scott the Plumber (PA)

Wow. "But house traps make drain cleaning very difficult and
they create a double-trapping situation, which is not allowed."
If this is the type of justification use by the IPC think-tank, then what other surprises should we expect in the future. House traps DO serve a purpose, primarily on public sewer systems, but also on septics. I guess I have enough feedback and it is appreciated. The question also stimulated some conversation and thought.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: hj (AZ)

quote;
1. But house traps make drain cleaning very difficult and
2.
they create a double-trapping situation."
3. If this is the type of justification use by the IPC think-tank, then what other surprises should we expect in the future.

1. Not only difficult but almost impossible, which is why they MUST be in an accessible location AND have cleanout openings on both sides.
2. Completely erroneous
3. That IS enough justification for NOT having house traps, but there are a lot more "surprises" in that "code". Most of the surprises are why the IPC membership did not want to merge with the UPC.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: Scott the Plumber (PA)

Yes, hj, I agree that building traps are difficult to clean without proper access. I live in an area that requires traps on the building drain, but also requires the proper access and clean outs for servicing. I therefore have had little, if any trouble with clogs in traps and find them to be the most simple sewer services to provide in relation to the "mystery" clog sitting 20 or 30 feet down the line. The trap itself is typically not the issue as tampons, sanitary napkins, paper towels, grease, toys, etc. should not be introduced into the plumbing system anyways. I know they do find their way in, but the clogs will still occur in old or new piping.
All traps, whether exposed or concealed, MUST be accessible. So if any trap is difficult to get to then shame on the installer and with the IPC reasoning THAT trap should be prohibited.
Lets recap.
1. All fixtures must have a trap
2. All traps must be accessible for servicing.
3. Traps that are not accessible are prohibited.
Seems to me that the trap is being blamed for the installers failure.
So the IPC expects plumbers to improperly install house traps without access or cleanouts, so therefore they should be deemed illegal in order to protect the public from bad installations. It is agreed that the double-trapping is erroneous.
Instead of teaching the right way to do it, just make it illegal. I don't think I was as far off from the bulls-eye as some may think.



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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: hj (AZ)

Bathtub and shower traps are NOT accessible, in the common meaning of the term, meaning you cannot walk up and touch them. Making house traps OPTIONAL rather than "required" or "prohibited" would satisfy most objections.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: LemonPlumber (FL)

exactly correct."the deterioration in flow from a double trap is a function of physics"Although I would have said /any\,not" a double trap".A house trap works on most large boats to date.



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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: hj (AZ)

quote; A house trap works on most large boats to date

WHAT does a boat have to with ANY discussion of plumbing. It is a completely different animal with its own rules and regulations.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: Scott the Plumber (PA)

" Bathtub and shower traps are NOT accessible, in the common meaning of the term, meaning you cannot walk up and touch them. Making house traps OPTIONAL rather than "required" or "prohibited" would satisfy most objections."
Sounds more than fair, hj.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: LemonPlumber (FL)

Sees sanitary is double trapped or not.the whole house trap and ship drainage seem to share common points.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: hj (AZ)

Standard plumbing codes do NOT apply to recreational vehicles, boats/ships, mobile homes, OR manufactured homes. They all walk to the beat of a different drummer.

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 Re: Trap on Septic Why/Why Not?
Author: Artman06 (PA)

A septic system dosn't need a house trap, where you hook in to your tank, there is a hole or nock out above the baffle, this should be vented! If the house you are hooking into the septic tank is an older house and not properly vented, I would stongly recomend a whole house trap, to prevent gases from entering the house, install a vent on the tank side of the trap to prevent the trap from being syphoned dry. When hooking into a public sewer, I would not hook it in without a trap, here in Pa I have seen vents freeze shut in the winter from moister going up the vents, when this happens, your traps begin to gurgle after use, this is the water being sucked out of your trap and leaving you NO protection from gases entering your house. MAKE NO MISTAKE SEWER SYSTEMS ARE DANGEROUS!!!! Mixing bleach and vinegar is a bad idea. Toxic chlorine gas is released, If your neighbor dumps one and you dump the other, toxic gases can form in the sewer system a hole house trap protects you and your family, the vent on top of a septic tank also does this, it alows the gases to escape to the atmosphere Read these articles...[www.jamestownsun.com] .... [www.swopnet.com] A hole house trap is not double traping! Its double protection! I would never let my family live in a house without a whole house trap! PLEASE THESE TRAPS SERVE A PUPOSE USE THEM!!!!! BTW I have been in the buisness for over 30 years, I also had 2 co-workers killed in a septic tank! Hope this helps.



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